Teaching the Bible as a story

22 comments on “Teaching the Bible as a story”

1. Matt S says:
   February 19th, 2009 at 9:29 am

   Teaching the Bible as fiction in public schools: the only way to get both religious and secular groups equally ruffled.

2. Roland says:
   February 19th, 2009 at 10:06 am

   As someone who suffered a post-cultural education (no Bible, no Greek myths or classical history, a university prof. who thought Spartacus was a Spartan), I like the idea of a cultural re-introduction that would either put some of my former teachers out of work, or send them back to school. Unfortuantely, the need to re-educate broad sections of educators would be the main (unspoken) reason why such a re-introduction would be resisted.

3. Monica says:
   February 19th, 2009 at 10:28 am

   I don’t see the point of teaching the bible as a story. I’m an atheist.

   The stories wouldnt be particularly good ones, in my opinion, and wouldnt have much oomph, if they arent taught with some basis in ‘reality’. So.. yeah, what’s the point?

4. Matt S says:
   February 19th, 2009 at 10:41 am

   Monica: The benefit of learning them would be the same benefit we get from learning classical mythology. Being not a disciple of Zeus or Athena, there is no religious reason for me to learn the myths of either of them; however, they’re a good deal of fun, and they also help me understand a lot of the fiction that came afterwards and referred back to them. Sure, the Bible’s not much fun, but it does help us understand Biblical allusions in later fiction (especially as they appear in fiction written around the turn of the 20th Century).

   That said, I’m not so sure that a lot of what people read nowadays depends in any way on Biblical allusion, and when it does, it surely requires only the most basic of knowledge (except for Battlestar Galactica). I don’t know that teaching the Bible as fiction outside of the context of specific texts would really help much. That said, I found it helpful when my grade 12 English teacher gave us several excerpts from the Book of Revelation when we were studying Fifth Business.

   And yes, Roland, you’re probably right. The need to teach educators the stuff that they’re already supposed to know is often what blocks any progress in the field, and is likely the reason why grade school is the only place in the world that New Criticism still seems like a good idea.

5. False Prophet says:
   February 19th, 2009 at 10:53 am

   I think a grounding in Biblical mythology is important for the same reason as a grounding in Greco-Roman mythology is. So much of our literature and history is built upon Judeo-Christian thought it would be remiss not to be taught at least the rudiments.

   Personally speaking: as a child, I first read mythology (Greek, Norse, Japanese, Aztec) the same time I was taught the Bible, and I credit this with spurring my atheism. It didn’t square that Zeus turning into a swan and knocking up Greek maidens was a fairy tale from a primitive people while Jesus multiplying loaves and fishes was supposed to be a true story. Even my seven-year-old self could see that. I intend to take the same approach with my own children.

6. Roland says:
   February 19th, 2009 at 10:54 am

   We’re all atheists here, Monica (at least, I assume we are until someone comes out with something shocking), but saying you won’t read the Bible because you’re an atheist is like saying you won’t read Brideshead because you’re not an ambiguously fruity Catholic toff.

7. Monica says:
   February 19th, 2009 at 11:31 am

   oh i have read parts of the bible, i’m not saying that i haven’t, or that other people shouldn’t, either, no matter what their religious/spiritual bent is. If it is taught in schools, as fiction, it should be in the same way that all those other stories are. There are no courses in Greek mythology, (as far as i know) so why should there be one in bible/religious stories? (Unless you’re in a religious school)Religion should be taught in the home, or in the church, if you’re so inclined.

   When i sing in my choir (non church choir), our conductor tells us to interpret whatever religious songs we sing as the story they are telling, if we don’t believe.

   My kids go to a catholic school, because of standard of teachers, location, etc, than anything having to do with religion.

8. Monica says:
   February 19th, 2009 at 11:32 am

   and who are you calling an ambiguously fruity Catholic toff?

9. Rob in Victoria says:
   February 19th, 2009 at 11:53 am

   Actually, I think it’s far more important, in western culture, to have a level of Biblical literacy than it is to have a grounding in Greek and Roman myths. The images, motifs and stories are the bedrock of our culture (and I’m writing this as an agnostic pagan Buddhist tantric gourman) — it’s basic cultural literacy.

   I’m not for a moment suggesting that this is a GOOD thing, but I think it’s a requirement for full and informed participation in the culture.

   (I took an art history introductory course a few years ago, and when we hit the early Middle Ages the professor started the lecture one day by informing us all that she was going to mess with the syllabus, because she had gotten feedback that some of her background material was unclear. She spent the next hour lecturing on Bible 101 — the Nativity, the Crucifixion, the Trinity, Revelations, etc, etc. It seems that this class of freshman had NO idea what any of these things referred to — while I, at the rarified age of 29, with my arduous United Church background (aka Christianity light — all the glory, none of the pesky guilt!) looked on dumbfounded. If you start looking around, watching what you say, listening to what others say, you’ll quickly come to realize just how saturated our culture is with these ideas, whether we believe or not. Not understanding the references would be, I would think, a significant handicap.)

10. Roland says:
    February 19th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    The Bible is also perhaps the most difficult book to study on one’s own.

11. cfg says:
    February 19th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    I’ve been aware of this deficit in my childrens’ educations for some time but I find it difficult to sit them down with any of the stories without the eerie feeling I’ve somehow ascended a pulpit. I was heartened to discover that my son’s Ancient History teacher (gr 7, secular school) was teaching some sections of the Old Testament alongside Ancient Greece, Mesopotamia, and Egypt, because I agree with Rob: without it, you miss a wealth of literary references.

12. Basil Sands says:
    February 19th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    Well, I can speak as one who is not an atheist. And can agree, without advocating one religion over another, that any religion that has had the impact that Christianity has on such a wide segment of society must be taught at least in the context of trying to understand where traditions and socialogical norms have received their definitions from if nothing else.
    Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, whatever your belief system is it cannot be denied that Christianity, and the Church (two mutually exclusive things by the way) have had a formative and foundational impact on nearly all European and Middle Eastern cultures since the Roman Calendar started. To deny the teaching of such a historically significant philosophy would be tantamount to erasing the understanding of how we got to where we are today.
    Other cultures have tried directly to erase an understanding of the past through the lens of a philosophy they disagreed with, in spite of the fact that their own history was the product of that philosophy they denied. Those cultures failed or are failing quite significantly. Cases is point: Soviet, Nazi, Maoist, North Korea.
    In other words, believe it or don’t believe it, that’s up to the individual. Those who believe in evolution likewise must base their belief on faith. What we are talking here though is not belief, rather an understanding of cultural and anthropological processes through which society has reached the place where it is today.

    wow…that was a lot of words all at once…hope I didn’t detract from my writing quota for the day ;)

13. Brian Palmu says:
    February 20th, 2009 at 12:59 am

    I agree with most others here that the Bible should be studied in school, for allusive continuity, yes, but especially for aesthetic probing and pleasure. There’s a lot of ass-kicking poetry from multiple writers in it.

14. Matt S. says:
    February 20th, 2009 at 8:28 am

    Other cultures have tried directly to erase an understanding of the past through the lens of a philosophy they disagreed with, in spite of the fact that their own history was the product of that philosophy they denied. Those cultures failed or are failing quite significantly. Cases is point: Soviet, Nazi, Maoist, North Korea.

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that there were other reasons those “cultures” are failing. (Hint: the culture isn’t failing; the government is.)

15. Rob in Victoria says:
    February 20th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    Matt – you quoted that whole paragraph for some reason OTHER than invoking Godwin on the thread? You’re a better man than I.

16. Monica says:
    February 20th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    Point taken, Rob. You’re probably more right than wrong (lol. thats as far as i’m going.) There is a dearth of ‘basic’ information that you just expect kids to know. I tend to forget that not all kids are like mine (sponges for all sorts of crap, like their mom) and that somee people don’t expose their kids to the basics.

17. August says:
    February 20th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Monica: actually, Greek mythology was part of the ninth grade curriculum when I was in high school. Not sure if it’s still the case, though.

18. Basil Sands says:
    February 20th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Matt, yes those governments fell for many reasons, but most of those reasons can be traced back to forgetting what failed or succeeded in the past. ANd failing to remember how they go to where they were.

    The Communist cultures (I call them cultures because after a short while the edict of the government became the norm of the culture) attempted to eradicate all that was done by the Tsarists, only in the end to repeat it on a more horrific scale. Likewise others who have tried to rewrite their own history by erasing the memory of what came before.

    I say embrace the past to learn from what succeeded before and to ensure we don’t screw up the same way they did.

19. Matt S says:
    February 20th, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    You may want to double check your research on that one, Basil. The Nazi movement was founded upon a notion of a continual cultural mythology. I also find it odd that you consider the Nazis to be a part of these so-called Communist Cultures. Sure, it’s true that you can easily lump many of these Communist governments in with the Nazis, but that’s because these “Communist” governments are Fascist, and not the other way around.

    Somewhat more on topic, I seem to recall learning most of my Greek mythology in either grade 5 or 6. I don’t recall if this is because I was taught it in class, or if it’s because I happened to pick up a book on it, but that would be the time I learned it. Anyone else here have a better memory of the Alberta education system in the late 80s?

20. Basil Sands says:
    February 21st, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Matt. Yes the Communists and Nazis can certainly be lumped together, regardless of who is considered to be the originator of the relationship. I am not lumping them together based on ideology, rather on methodology. And teh Nazis were not so much based on a return to history in general. Rather it was a return to ancient mythology while skipping over a millenia of Christian impact and jumping directly to a Wagneresque image of Wodin and the Norse pantheon.

    In other words, they didn’t study the bible in school either.

    And, to get back on point, I didn’t go to school in Alberta. But my school did lightly brush upon Greek mythology about the same period as you, then referred back to it occaisionally throughout high school. The reference was typically in an English class related to reading the classics. I would rather have seen it in a history class a bit more as part of a sociological understanding of those cultures.

21. Roland says:
    February 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    This is off topic, but I’d like to address some things that keep coming up in religion discussions on Bookninja:

    One hears a lot about what “the Nazis,” or “the Soviets” believed. People tend to forget that these regimes were run by relatively small cliques of individuals, who didn’t agree on everything.

    Some of the Nazis, for example, were occultists or Paganists, some were devout Catholics, some were vaguely Nietzschean atheists. That porridge of ideas did not constitute any concrete “Nazi” outlook, as anti-Semitism or anti-Bolshevism did.

    Also, the extent to which people associate aggressive atheism with the Soviet Union is overblown, in part a testament to effective Cold War propaganda. Most of the Soviet anti-religious campaigns were carried out during first decade or so of the regime, and had more to do with the all-impoverishing Bolsheviks wanting to lay hands on the wealth of Orthodox Church than with any faith-extirpating project per se. In 1927, the Bolsheviks coerced the Patriarch Sergius I into pledging loyalty to the regime, and from then the church co-existed with, and even aided, the Soviet regime. Russian Orthodox émigrés split from the Church in response.

    Russia today is, of course, ostentatiously religious, and the Putin clique never misses a chance to be photographed with the Church’s black-clad Patriarch.

22. Roland says:
    February 22nd, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    P.S. I don’t mean to say (as I seem to above) that there were no faith-extirpating projects, just that they were abandoned quite early on, and that they were the ideological cover for the regime’s claim on the Church’s wealth.

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